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banjoy - Posted - 12/30/: 12:54:21
This post is directed at any BHO member who may have experience with self-leveling concrete, or more specifically, making your own self-leveling recipe.
My project is I am closing in a small (about 77 sq.ft.) back porch into a sun room. Previously an exposed porch which shed water, the concrete floor is 1"+ out of level. I have calculated that I'll need about 20-25 gallons of self-levelling concrete to level the floor. To buy this ready-mixed is a very expensive proposition.
In researching this on the 'net I was not able to find any DIY recipe. So, I'm turning to a bunch of banjo pickers for suggestions. The only thing I could find was that the key seems to be to slow down the drying process to keep the mix from becoming too brittle. So, my own recipe calls for portland cement, a small amount of sand, and water blended with acrylic-latex fortifier, to 50/50 or even 60/40 admix-to-water. I already have enough fortifier to do this. This will be mixed to the consistency of a loose pancake batter, then hand-poured all at once.
The final floor will probably be 12 x 12 ceramic tiles set with thinset mortar...
Comments? Suggestions? Much appreciated!!
--banjoy
P.S. -- HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
Edited by - banjoy on 12/30/ 12:58:23
O.D. - Posted - 12/30/: 14:48:41
Why not just pour with standard sand/portland mix and screed it off level with a straight edge?
Id put down some bonding agent too.
Good luck
O.D.
dat - Posted - 12/30/: 15:19:27
no bigger than that you could mix it up in a wheel barrow and pour by hand, set your forms out of 1 X , a 2 X if you want, it wouldn't have to be very strong no more than it is holding in, level your form, mix a little wet and screed level, it'll take a couple of mixings, but it'll work
dennis andrews - Posted - 12/31/: 11:09:34
Putting a thin cap of concrete over an existing concrete floor may not work. It's possible it may just break out. It might be better to put in a wood floor and shim where required.
But what do I know?
JMO
minstrelmike - Posted - 12/31/: 12:08:04
When I converted my garage into some bedrooms, the floor angled down to shed water and oil.
A contractor said if I could pour 2 inches of concrete, it would hold, but that if wanted less than 2 inches, then I'd need to do something different (probably your self-leveling expensive stuff).
I rented a jackhammer and took out the highest concrete and then bought a delivered load of ready to pour stuff.
I have mixed concrete by hand and am willing to pay to not have to do it.
The jack hammer was easier and also let out a lot of tension ;-)
Don Shriner - Posted - 12/31/: 16:45:35
If you are looking for more details, kindly visit acrylic emulsion pure.
You might consider laying sheet plastic on top of the old concrete to prevent bonding as the two layers will expand and contract at different rates. I would also say 2" minimum depth with 3/8" pea rock for strength. I think with your tile and thin set, small cracks (less than 1/8"), will not be an issue.
If your old concrete seems to have large cracks or elevation differences, you might just hammer it and start over, that would mean you have compaction issues, not a good thing especially with ceramic tile. 77sqft at 3.5" thick= less than a yard, < 10 wheelbarrows and maybe a half rack or two depending on who your friends are. My formula for this is 3 beers per person per yard, unless they are musicians then its 3 beers to the shovel and hire some one else to do it.
What the heck, try your mix and see what happens, keep us posted.
banjoy - Posted - 12/31/: 17:47:33
LOL I had not considered beer to be a part of the formula I'm looking for.
Self-leveling cement is a fortified off-the-shelf product that you can pour paper-thin with no probs. That's what it's made for. It's designed to do that. It's just that the premix stuff is so outrageously expensive...
I was thinking in the reverse direction: I want it to bond to the old slab. The fortifier increases bonding like crazy so I don't think movement will be an issue when they are bonded together. The room is already closed in and sheetrocked so a tearout is not practical. A leveled floor would be adding about 1/4" and its thinnest to 1-1/4" at its thickest. The prospect of tearing out, forming etc is a tad overkill for the result I'm seeking.
Another possibility I had considered is this new method of preparing floors with a plastic membrane laid with mastic and then tile are thinset right to it. It's designed so the tile essentially float on the surface so any underlying cracks that develop will not transfer to the tile. That's not cheap either but I think it would work fine...
Anyway, I'm laid enough tile so no prob there, just have never mixed my own self-levelling concoction. I may give it a whirl once the weather breaks and I have a week of calm temperatures at night... we'll see how it goes!
So, portland, sand, beer, and latex additive. Got it!
Thanks!
Edited by - banjoy on 12/31/ 17:49:04
Don Shriner - Posted - 12/31/: 19:17:51
That membrane sounds great, I'll have to check it out, sounds similar to the theory of floating laminate floors.
To bond or not to bond is an age old question... Good Luck !
O.D. - Posted - 01/01/: 03:53:14
Hey banjoy.
I agree with you on bonding the new mix to the old. A non bonded thin layer will be hollow and structuraly unstable.
it sounds like the unlevelness was due to pitch on the previously exterior porch top. If not and the concrete has sunk, you might want to consider the previous suggestions to bust it out and see whats going on under the slab to identify the sinking issue.
if the old concrete is structualy sound i would'nt be afraid to top it with a topping mix. however as I previously mentioned , Id use a bonding agent of your choice according to their specific instructions. If you suspect any kind of sealers, clear coats etc, had been applied to the surface then consider etching or scarifiying the surface to acheive a good bond.
Ive done this plenty of times with good results. Ive always used a pre mix topping ,or mixed my own portland/sand mix.
I have very little experience with the "self leveling" mix. Its actualy not too common around here and is hard to find.Seems to me that the key ingredients would be the "Latex/ Acrylic component Sounds like a good idea though.
Good luck with the job. and dont work too hard.
Happy New Year.
O.D.
Martian - Posted - 01/01/: 10:17:00
I was a floor guy for 34 years, you are doing a small area so set up should not be to tough, we used to use a product Ardex, and you are correct, it is very expensive, you can lengthen the set up time by putting ice cube in the mix ,stirring until cubes melt, but have all your stuff ready .It is self leveling, but I would use a trowel to push your mix around. So have a trowel ,bigger the better 18-24in., and water buckets for cleanup,also , if this is an enclosed room, mke sure there are no gaps between molding, and floor products like Ardex will never set up if there is a place for it to go .You can plug this up by using duct tape,good luck, hope this help, but remember ,before you mix and pour, have everything there
Don Shriner - Posted - 01/01/: 13:53:24
ok,now we've all learned something.
Latex Self Levelling compound comes in two types, first the powder and latex mix type where you buy the powder cement product and a bottle/barrel of latex liquid to mix with it, or the second which is an all in one powder product which can be mixed with water.
I used the second type, the all in one, mix with water type.
I talked to several local tiling shops and 2 local tilers, they all said that the name on the bag does not make a lot of difference, the mix and the prep is the important bit.
To prepare a floor, first know the limitation of the product. I was levelling an uneven concrete floor in a 20 year old house. The floor was stable, and extremely dry. I hoovered the floor, then rubbed off any high points, or very noticable lumps in the existing concrete with an angle grinder. Then hoovered again. I then painted a mix of 1 part PVA glue to 2 parts water on to the floor as the glue directed for sealing dusty or porous surfaces.
Next I took a long level and found the highest point in the room. I then marked the floor with a felt tip pen to remind my self where the deepest of the depressions were.
I then mixed my self levelling compound as per the instructions, thought it was a bit too stiff and added a bit more water until I got to a syrupy, runny texture. I then spread a little self levelling compound on the floor with a 12" plasterers trowel anywhere the compound would be going. This would release surface tension on the floor when I made up the level.
Next I poured the self levelling compound onto the floor heaviest on the deepest points. I used a level as a long scraper working across the floor, the self levelling compound began to dry rapidly, so I worked as fast as I could. I filled the main voids and got the minor depressions level with cost number one.
I then left it 24 hours to harden. Next day, repeated the same procedure as before, again, using a level to form the self levelling compound, focusing on the slight depressions, smoothing a lot with my plasterers trowel.
I left the compound for about 30 minutes, and went to check it. In one or two places, I had over filled and created a ridge or a lump, so I used the edge of my plasterers trowel to gently scrap off the excess compound.
I then left it to harden. On checking the level is pretty much spot on, they are still very slight undulations, of no more than half a mm across a 1.5 metre level. The floor has hardened nicely.
A couple of quick points -
1. Self levelling compound does not self level, it MUST be guided into place using a trowel.
2. The brand is not a great deal breaker if you are a DIY at home person.
3. The instructions on the packet are not necessarily perfect, go by feel for the correct consistency, the description I found accurate was cold, runny porridge, or as my mate said, grey runny snot!
4. This is an amateur set of instructions based on my personal experience of using Wickes own brand latex self levelling compound, I found it okay to use, mainly as I couldn't find anywhere else that sold this stuff!
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